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General Help with my first Project

Get help with creating, editing & fixing problems with skins
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Yincognito
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Re: General Help with my first Project

Post by Yincognito »

LuciferVisuals wrote: May 14th, 2023, 6:00 pm Yeak tried that, you will see why its a nightmare when you see the code for this. I foumnd a different way to achieve the same thing, Not what I originally wanted to do, but it works and the result is the same.... Not so good for new skins things I have not even thought of yet, but will cross that bridge when I come to it.
If it's a nightmare, then most likely you do something wrong or you're overcomplicating things. All these possibilities, from including, to merging, to meter styles, to common resources, to variables that are dynamic are meant to simplify things. Most of them, bar dynamic variables, rely on similarity between skins (i.e. the more similar the skins are, the more effective these approaches will be), while dynamic variables handle the differences and "switching" between "methods".

Bottom line, it makes no sense to build things modularly and integrate them with one another if they are radically different in design and functionality; likewise, it makes no sense to write the same code ten times for similar skins if you can integrate them and make them share the similarities by writing the code a single time for all of them. Each of these two situations requires its suited approach. Mishmashing everything into an all in one regardless of the logic that matches various situations is rarely a good idea.
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LuciferVisuals
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Re: General Help with my first Project

Post by LuciferVisuals »

Yincognito wrote: May 14th, 2023, 6:54 pm If it's a nightmare, then most likely you do something wrong or you're overcomplicating things.


A distinct possibility...... :handtohead: but when I said it's a nightmare, I did not mean that in the way you thought I meant. But I fully admit could be over complicating it). What I actually meant was for me this has been extremely challenging... (Not because of my reading issue). Most of the code I am using is fairly basic (certainly by the standards of a "sage"). I'm still fairly new to this, the issue has been what I would call the i'ts "Layers of complexity", where one thing affects another, and the ability to integrate things that have not been written yet. I would imagine that IF you had this idea and thought "What a good idea" I have no doubt that you could do it in no time and much better. But as I don't have anywhere near your level pf experience, it's taken me a fair time to work out some "practicalities" that you would already know how to do.

On occasion it's also taken me some considerable time to find out that something wont actually work, then to find a work around to get a similar result. I'm not complaining, I have learnt so much doing this. :thumbup:

Bottom line, it makes no sense to build things modularly and integrate them with one another if they are radically different in design and functionality;
Agreed....... Which is one reason why once this framework is finished, I need to revise pretty much most of my previous experimental work to make it compatible so that they can all share and "Play Together" :party:

Ironically one of the remaining parts of "The Playground" that I'm working on now, it making the code modular, so that can also be shared. The first working version of this will mainly share graphics, and animations not only easier to do (I have cracked that), For two reasons, firstly It offers more immediate "Bang for your Buck" in that it demonstrates and offers an immediate useful advantage. Secondly, at the moment my level of experience is such that basically I would still have to write a new skin first. then and only then would I be able to cut out chunks of code from it and put them into a code module to be re included in the skin (but then also available for other skins to @include).

Probably a long winded way of doing this..... But it's the only way I can do it at the moment, with my current level of experience. :?

It makes no sense to write the same code ten times for similar skins if you can integrate them and make them share the similarities by writing the code a single time for all of them. Each of these two situations requires its suited approach.
100% agreed on that....... :thumbup:

Unfortunately I did not even have this idea until recently (I could not have thought of it earlier, I simply did not know enough to even dream of doing this), So most of what I had previously done and was working needs revising to meet that criteria. Initially I will settle for doing the minimum amount just to make it all "compatible", so that all the graphics and animations are "shareable" and so there are some compatible skins for the playground are quickly available. So that there is immediately some point in having the playground infra-structure in the first place, so that others are not presented with the "chicken and egg" situation I faced when attempting to start this.

Making all the coding modular will be more work, but is the final objective, and clearly has amazing potential, so even the first version of this "infra-structure" will have the basic ability to do that built in, however there wont initially be much modular code to take advantage of. As I start revising all my previous experiments, I'll first make them work in the playground, then start pulling chunk of code out of them, to be "@included" back into them, and thus be available as plug in modules for other skins.......

Well that has always been the final objective.... And ideally with no coding needed from the end user..... Other than at most adding and @include, but on my own stuff I'm hoping even that wont be needed. And that's what I meant by Nightmare, It's the "Layers of complexity" required to be able to make the process as easy as possible to eventually use and ideally, for want of a better word, to make it "Fully Automatic" with my own skins...........

Which was why I was interested in the possibility of a conditional @include statement. I had already had a good look and thought there was no way to do that. But I asked you, as with you considerable experience there was a possibility that you knew of something I did not even know existed, possibly called something totally different, that I would never guess in a million years. I found a "Work Around", not ideal, does not offer the full potential of a conditional @include, but it works. So I'll use it for now, so I can get on..... Once I have this actually finished to the point where I can post it.

Then (and only then) I'll ask if there is any possibility of having a Conditional @include in future. No point asking until people can see why it could be such a good improvement, so I wont even ask at the moment, the probably reaction is why on earth would you need that? what good would it be? Surely you know if there is a file to include, why on earth do you need to have a conditional statement in case it's there?
Totally fair questions, but I don't want to use up time explaining, I would rather show the working "infrastructure" then point out how much better it could be "IF"(condition)@Include... was available.

I may be wrong, but I doubt if the idea of including things that have not been written yet is common, It might even actually be a new concept.

Anyway I agree with everything you said. :thumbup: And I will be interested in your feedback when I have the first usable version of this done so you can actually see it in use. This first version will be fully working, it will also be far from finished, and certainly far from "Optimized", but hopefully it will be enough to see it's potential.

Keith
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Yincognito
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Re: General Help with my first Project

Post by Yincognito »

LuciferVisuals wrote: May 15th, 2023, 8:15 amthe issue has been what I would call the i'ts "Layers of complexity", where one thing affects another, and the ability to integrate things that have not been written yet.
Ah, that. Yep, it's more difficult when changing already written structures to something else, I know. This is why such things should be done from the beginning, and here building stuff from scratch into the final desired structure is well suited. Of course, in your skin's case it's too late for that, I was just saying.
LuciferVisuals wrote: May 15th, 2023, 8:15 amSurely you know if there is a file to include, why on earth do you need to have a conditional statement in case it's there?
Actually, I don't wonder about this, I'm for the idea. The problem with this is not that it's not good to have, it's the fact that those @include lines are read at load / refresh time and by their nature require refreshing to be applied. In other words, they're not things that can be modified seamlessly, "on the fly", like variables. Of course, it isn't absolutely needed to change the .inc file value: assuming that you @include two .incs in a skin and want to toggle between them, you could replicate the effect by mass disabling all measures / hiding all meters in the unwanted .inc (via Group-ing them accordingly, e.g. Group=Inc1Measures, Group=Inc1Meters in the 1st .inc and Group=Inc2Measures, Group=Inc2Meters in the 2nd .inc) - you can even do that based on a dynamic variable you modify from 1 to 2 and backwards at will...
LuciferVisuals wrote: May 15th, 2023, 8:15 amAnd I will be interested in your feedback when I have the first usable version of this done so you can actually see it in use.
If you say so...
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Re: General Help with my first Project

Post by LuciferVisuals »

Yincognito wrote: May 15th, 2023, 10:14 am

If you say so...
Absolutely.... I have learnt sooo much from you, I'm just trying to break the back of this myself, not because I don't value you opinion, it's just I learn better that way, even though it may be a painfully slow repetitive process. So at least you know when I ask a question.... Its not a question of being too lazy, its just I'm stuck however simple it may appear.

Look how do you fancy seeing what I have so far..... It's not finished, by a long shot, and I'm not stuck yet.... Though there has been a staggering amount of trial and error. There is some "Dummy" data included that would normally be put in place when a new skin is installed, (And that will probably actually remain in the skin, I have not played with the installer yet, so cannot finalize where stuff will go till I do.... And I'm not ready for that yet..... Trying to solve the problems one at a time, otherwise it gets a bit confusing, and for me this is already confusing enough, holding so many variables in my head at one time. But I think I'm managing fairly well juggling what I have.

If you want a look at where i'm up to, I remove some crap, and cut it down a bit and also I'll point out what you can simply do to watch the change when a new skin is added. just remove or add one file (it uses that RU-There solution). The change is not very spectacular, in fact you have to look to see it, but as a proof of concept, it adds something from a new skin, to an existing one.

Let me know if you are up for a look yet, then you will better understand any stupid questions I appear to ask....
I do realize you are working blind at the moment.

That's partly because I wanted to surprise you... I know you like surprises, and partly trying to stand on my own to feet... Least till I get stuck

Keith.
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LuciferVisuals
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Re: General Help with my first Project

Post by LuciferVisuals »

Yincognito wrote: May 15th, 2023, 10:14 am

If you say so...
Oh In case it wasn't clear, what is there works, you can actually play with it, it was error free till the new stuff I did today, havn't checked if that has introduced any errors, I don't bother looking till its working then check and fix any "unexpected" side effects.

Keith
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Re: General Help with my first Project

Post by LuciferVisuals »

Yincognito wrote: May 15th, 2023, 10:14 am
If you say so...
Well, I just debugged everything I put in cannot find any red or yellow warnings, getting better at finding and fixing them.

Good news is the whole thing including an extra shin to prove it works, (and all the previously mentioned crap) is 5 megs so I don't need to do any work removing it.

So I have made a skin (hopefully it worked, still only done that a couple of times.

No bat files in there.
You should have The playground infrastructure
A cut down copy of my kino remote which is being used as the welcome screen..... etc.
The help and coming soon are still just the same as the welcome screen, they work but havn't been touched.
The Three I have worked on are the welcome screen (1) the LP-Skins found (2) and Standby (5). Most of the work being done on (2). But The standby (5) does something very interesting, leave till last, have a play with the other two first. Then put the Kino controller into standby
Leave that visible on screen, then go into :
LP\@Resources\System\p4.... there is a single file there, delete it (same as uninstalling the Lock Skin, as far as the playground is concerned.... watch the top right hand corner of the remote, do do anything just watch, after about 6 seconds the lock will disappear. Now put a file back in there, (any will do there is a spare in LP\@Resources\System, no need to change its name, doesn't actually matter what it is, now copy and past that back into P4\ (which will be empty as you deleted the only file in there) Again do nothing just watch the top right corner of the Kino Controller, after about 6 seconds, the playground will have detected the Lock Skin and will put the lock back, click on it and it will work.

Not spectacular, I admit, but proof it works.

Keith
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Yincognito
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Re: General Help with my first Project

Post by Yincognito »

LuciferVisuals wrote: May 15th, 2023, 1:20 pmI'm just trying to break the back of this myself, not because I don't value you opinion, it's just I learn better that way, even though it may be a painfully slow repetitive process.
Breaking the back of things yourself is something I agree with, all I'm saying is that you should use the manual too, not just experimenting the trial and error approach. The conversation here and the help you may get from the forum is NOT a substitute for checking what can or cannot be done by taking a quick look in the right place from the manual to read one or two lines. Generally, the help should be seeked only when the solution isn't obvious from the manual. ;-)
LuciferVisuals wrote: May 15th, 2023, 1:20 pmLet me know if you are up for a look yet, then you will better understand any stupid questions I appear to ask....
I think it's better to let this to the moment when stuff will be complete and more or less final - there's no rush. Even if I'd check it now, I know that you'd want me to check it out when you finish things, and I prefer to do it once instead of multiple times (you know, efficiency and all). So, take your time, do everything right, test if for yourself and make sure things are as optimal as you'd want them to be, because there's plenty of time afterwards for others' opinions or improvement suggestions, if any.
LuciferVisuals wrote: May 15th, 2023, 2:45 pmSo I have made a skin (hopefully it worked, still only done that a couple of times.
Well, I knew you'd post the thing for me to check it out without waiting for my answer (already a habbit, I see, lol, doing it your way anyway), but yeah, it works. I liked that both the top right hand corner image changed AND the list of found skins when going back changed as well, e.g. the skin text not present. A lot of folders there to be populated with the final products, but you know better the reason for that structure, Well done! :thumbup:
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Re: General Help with my first Project

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Yincognito wrote: May 15th, 2023, 3:43 pm all I'm saying is that you should use the manual too, not just experimenting the trial and error approach. ..... help should be seeked only when the solution isn't obvious from the manual. ;-)
I have to ask, do you know what dyslexia is? seriously, not being funny, I am word blind, I cannot actually see words, it's a recognized condition, I cannot do anything about it, basically I cannot read, and never will be able to, over the last 50 years I have developed some amazing "coping mechanisms" They are so successful that we are having this conversation. BUT I will never be able to read as such, I would stand a better chance of reading Hieroglyphics, literally. I can get by writing, quite well, I used to try and learn to write ten words a day, they are like pictures to me, but once I have written then, I struggle to read them again. My teachers said I would never learn to read and write, So I'm doing OK, under the circumstances, this is a medical condition, I'm lucky I do not have it severely, but it's enough to ensure that reading a manual is 1000 times harder for me, than trial and error. That's why I do it..... But as a last resort, not a first resort.
I think it's better to let this to the moment when stuff will be complete and more or less final - there's no rush.
Fair enough
Well done! :thumbup:
Was literally answering your post line by line, (as I said reading is a very slow process for someone with dyslexia) so had not got to the above part yet :great:

(Imagine I'm deaf, but can speak, that is a good analogy, everyone assumes because I can speak I can obviously hear.... Not necessarily so)

Thanks for taking a look, I know there will be some problems that I will want to ask someone about, and by now you have a better idea than most how I work (or try too) and what I can and cannot do, so basically from my point of view you are an obvious first choice.

I am keen to learn new things like this, but sadly cannot learn a new way to absorb the information, its a bit like telling a deaf person they can easily learn a foreign language with those learn a language recordings.... They cannot hear them, however good they are. So I'm stuck with trial and error mainly, and trust me, I know that's a hard way to learn, but at least it's something I can actually do.... eventually. The hardest part is finding something new, once I manage to isolate a line of code, I can play with it and experiment "until the cows come home" But it's very difficult finding that initial bit that is capable of doing what I want in the first place.

With my reading issue, It takes me a fair time to understand the written word, So while I am keen to "EVENTUALLY" put this into the forum for others opinions and input, that will be very time consuming understanding what they are asking, hence another reason why I wish to have it to a more or less finished project, which will eliminate a lot of questions relating to "Why are you doing that?" Because by then it will be clear, and I will also intentionally remove everything experimental, so hopefully the communication will focus on how it can be improved, which will be worth investing the time understanding.

Coming back to the project, it is early days, but it does have potential and promise, I may not be capable of fully exploiting it's potential "any time soon".... But if I can get it to the point where someone more experienced can see it and think "that's cool" someone else may pick up the concept and take it to another level.

For now I'll push on, but at least you can see what I am aiming for now.

Keith