Intel.......Busted???? You decide

[sgtevmckay]

To say I am not happy is a true under statement

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/media_center/2009/nov/nov4a_09.html

[Chewtoy]

I can't really say that I'm suprised.
The market has been way to bad for AMD. Just take their new 5850 and 5870. They hade a release date like a month ago. But there are very few of them on the market. Now, surely. A big company like AMD would be able to ship out a graphic card that has been compleated for some time in time for it's release date. Yet, no cards were in stores (here in Sweden at least) when the release was. And they are still extreamly hard to find!
So I'm not at all surprised over this. And I'm extreamly dissapointed at Intel for sinking this low...

Think I'm gonna buy AMD for some time now as it would go against my morales to by Intel now.

[bendenfield]

that's just buisness. the one who got the money makes the rules. it was that way and it will be that way forever.

ok. this is maybe not the common opinion, but when i notice stories like that, i always have to remember natural selection. the superior one defeats the inferior one. well, maybe this sounds rude. but, as i said, things were that way for millions of years. and it worked all the time. why should we stop it now? because we are living in an educated community? because we call us 'intelligent' or because we call us 'summit of creation'? because we are humans??

on the first look this may does not make really sense. but in fact those companies are absolutly natural, too. let me expand on this: a bird has a nest, a human has a house. a lion has his pack, a human has his family. ants have their organized community, humans have their countries. a beehive has it's different sorts of bees doing their specific job, a human serves the community with a specific work.
what actually makes a company? i think a company has to slip their service into the community. and now the proof: some monkey species divide their packs into little groups doing a certain work for the entire pack. for example they divide into one group guarding their place and into another little group searching for food or maybe even hunting down inferior animals. in the end they all work together and try to achieve the best for the entire pack.

a company does that aswell. while a power plant serves the country with energy, a little group of fishers - maybe only 5 people, but it is also a company - ship out to the ocean and try to make a good catch. of course, most times the peoples are very egoistic and only do that for their own wealth, but as a nice side effect they simultaneously make the community a little bit better.

so, we can apply the principle of natural selection on our own community. maybe Intel did something illegal, but they simply have more money. and they will give their best to achieve more improvements on microships. they, so to say, killed AMD and now are, pretty much without any advanced rival firm, the biggest microship company. in a humane view they are ***holes, but in view of the best for the whole community, they have now the leading role in the buisness and can fully concentrate on offering new advanced technology to the world.

uhm... i know that does not really have much to do with the topic, it is more general, but i just must say that, as i began to write and then came into that flow... and of course it is my true opinion. you may not be that opinion and i would like to hear your counter-arguments

[sgtevmckay]

It makes me think back to a common difference of opinion.
For my example I will use the difference between King Arthur and his son.

King Arthur:
" God makes us strong for a little while so that we may help one another. To better ourselves, and in that which is to come next."

Mordred:
"MY GOD MAKES ME STRONG; SO THAT I MAY LIVE MY LIFE!!!"

Neither is wrong!
But...Mordred is always considered the bad guy even though he just has a different philosophy.

This is not an example of David v. Goliath at all
This is an example of moral and Philosophical differences.
These are also mythological situations
Here is a few more:
Professor X and Magneto
Republican and Democrat
Christian and Jewish
America and China

None of these are bad, just different.
BUT...That being said...."fear is never advancement, only advanced stagnation"
It is not my place to say what Intel has done is bad, only to say that they have not fostered an open and advancing system of growth.

Ask yourself; Where would we be today with real competition?
Is Intel's position completely artificial or inflated?
Where would we collectively be today?
Where would AMD be given a fair shake?
Would AMD have done any different in Intel's shoes?

To the last question probably not.

I will be upfront and say that I may be biased as I am an AMD fan, not a hardcore fan but a fan nonetheless.

In the past I have had nothing but one issue after another with Intel cored systems, but with AMD I have had nothing but success and fluid smooth systems. Either that I have built or by other companies.
Even this Crappytop I am working on with the Intel C2D is a huge disappointment.

Now that we understand that my opinion may be biased. Let me move forward.

I believe that if what Intel is accused of is correct, then they have done wrong, mislead the consumer, and artificially inflated their stocks and End User prices.
With this law suit pending, I question everything I have ever been taught about Intel, and how they are the best.
are They...or did they buy the title?
If Intel is the best, and they would know it, then there would have been no need to pressure hardware developers to create products on one platform, and threaten reprisals if they do not cooperate.
Do other major corporations do this? Sure all the time, but in a market that is as sensitive as world wide growth and advancement...I do not know.
Do I condone it; NO
If you make a superior product prove it.

I have always wondered if Intel's claims were legitimate, and now I question even more with my past experiences.

I wonder if Intel knows that AMD is superior and got scared and money marketed AMD out when they may have stepped ahead.

Of all this there is one thing for certain, one question I would like a solid answer to , and this situation should bring it to the forefront.
Does AMD offer a better system and CPU built on their architecture?

I guess I am a Utopias
and I believe as King Arthur did
we are strong for a little while, may we teach the next to be strong as well, may those that are week in an area seek assistance from those that are strong in those areas, and to prepare for what is to become next!
I believe that the basic instincts...the Laws of Nature...Can be overcome.
It doesn't have to be that way with all species

[Chewtoy]

that's just buisness. the one who got the money makes the rules. it was that way and it will be that way forever.

ok. this is maybe not the common opinion, but when i notice stories like that, i always have to remember natural selection. the superior one defeats the inferior one. well, maybe this sounds rude. but, as i said, things were that way for millions of years. and it worked all the time. why should we stop it now? because we are living in an educated community? because we call us 'intelligent' or because we call us 'summit of creation'? because we are humans??

on the first look this may does not make really sense. but in fact those companies are absolutly natural, too. let me expand on this: a bird has a nest, a human has a house. a lion has his pack, a human has his family. ants have their organized community, humans have their countries. a beehive has it's different sorts of bees doing their specific job, a human serves the community with a specific work.
what actually makes a company? i think a company has to slip their service into the community. and now the proof: some monkey species divide their packs into little groups doing a certain work for the entire pack. for example they divide into one group guarding their place and into another little group searching for food or maybe even hunting down inferior animals. in the end they all work together and try to achieve the best for the entire pack.

a company does that aswell. while a power plant serves the country with energy, a little group of fishers - maybe only 5 people, but it is also a company - ship out to the ocean and try to make a good catch. of course, most times the peoples are very egoistic and only do that for their own wealth, but as a nice side effect they simultaneously make the community a little bit better.

so, we can apply the principle of natural selection on our own community. maybe Intel did something illegal, but they simply have more money. and they will give their best to achieve more improvements on microships. they, so to say, killed AMD and now are, pretty much without any advanced rival firm, the biggest microship company. in a humane view they are ***holes, but in view of the best for the whole community, they have now the leading role in the buisness and can fully concentrate on offering new advanced technology to the world.

uhm... i know that does not really have much to do with the topic, it is more general, but i just must say that, as i began to write and then came into that flow... and of course it is my true opinion. you may not be that opinion and i would like to hear your counter-arguments 8-)

As a biologist I really have a problem letting this be...

Natural Selection is not about "Let's kill that one so we can flurish without competition!".
Natural selection is about adaption of the species. It's about species adapting to the enviorment they are in. It's not about killing competition.

So to say that a company bribing other companies to get more sold is like a fundamental term in the whole sience of biology is just... wrong... So wrong...
It would be natural selection if Intel actually adapted better to the customers demands. THEN it would probably be better and lo and behold we have natural selection.

To examplify: Have you ever seen antilopes and gnus attacking one another? No. Yet they feed on the same grass.
Or perhaps we should focus on predators and see ourselves (the consumers) as pray.
Have you ever seen lions and hyenas fight? Yes. But have you ever seen one of them kill off the entire group of the other species? No. And you won't. Why? Well why would you? If you remove one component (species) from the ecosystem you will damage it severly. We've already seen this in the world (salmon, tuna, whales, lions you name it).

So if we should apply nature in to the social media of the virus namned Homo sapiens (we do actually follow the same pattern as a virus. Matrix is correct on that point) then we see that Intel killing AMD will lead to something bad as this is like killing of a species.
Without competition there is no improvement as you will always be the best. So no matter what you do, it will still be the best --> lower quality as there is no demand to be better.
And as there will only be one manufaturer on the market, this one will have a monopoly and will by that be able to set any price it wants. And as it's a company, and company usually want to make as much profit as possible --> The price will increase.

But to get back to the point:
This is very much NOT like natural selection. This is economics, the tool to put an imaginary value on man.

[G33k]

Sooo disappointed in Intel... But at least that explains AMD's struggle the past few years.

[MattKing]

they, so to say, killed AMD and now are, pretty much without any advanced rival firm, the biggest microship company. in a humane view they are ***holes, but in view of the best for the whole community, they have now the leading role in the buisness and can fully concentrate on offering new advanced technology to the world.

This doesn't allow for competition and would actually lead to less advances in technology. Plain and simple thats really what a monopoly would do when they DON'T have to innovate to be on top. This is actually hurting the community in a huge way. I'm not saying this would definitely happen, but why are there so many products that do the same thing?

[poiru]

I can't really say that I'm suprised.
The market has been way to bad for AMD. Just take their new 5850 and 5870.

First of all, how does an high-end ATi graphics card relate to this? Second, just look at nVidia. They are screwed with their GT300 architecture, which was due ages ago.

You really can't expect ATi to deliver big batches of their cards to Europe (and I'm from Finland so not dissing Europe), when they have a much larger market in the U.S. Take a look at Apple. In the States, you can get an iPhone in any shop. Here in Finland (and generally in the smaller European countries), you have to wait weeks and possibly months to get one.

Plus, the delays of both ATi and nVidia are largely due to TMSC, who have problems with the 40nm manufacturing process.

Oh, and don't by AMD just because of this. Would you buy a Toyota instead of a Ferrari (ignore price), if Ferrari would've done something like this?
And Intel was busted ages ago in Europe. They had to pay tons of money to the EU for breaking the laws.

Jag hoppas att du köpä Intel. AMD är inte bra. (My excellent Swedish :P)

Sooo disappointed in Intel... But at least that explains AMD's struggle the past few years.

No, what explains AMD's struggle in my point-of-view is that you get much more per MHz from an Intel CPU. What matters to the the general consumer, I don't know..

[bendenfield]

Chewtoy: well. it is true, natural selection is not like "a species kills another one". but it is about a species doing the best to achieve the best for their own wealth. though, supressing another species may be a side effect of that.
actually this is exactly what Intel did. they tried to get to a place in the sun. while trying this they "killed" AMD. to be honest this is not a real "side effect", since it was intended. of course, you cannot apply that natural law of natural selection on the human community word by word, but as i said in my first post, the human is just like any other animal and does not require any completly new natural laws to explain (not more than modifications at all). in my opinion this is the best prove for human's naivete and self-love.
and yes, prices will increase as a result.

sgtevmckay: i cannot answer the question, since i am absolutly not an expert on this subject. but i am not dissapointed with Intel as their processor is working fine for me.
moving forward i think you did a mistake in your final argumentation that basic instincts - or as you call them laws of nature - can be overcome. i don't agree that instincts and laws of nature are not the same. i agree that instincts can be overcome, but not the natural laws.

MattKing: we are living in the 21st century. it doesn't require competition only to improve any longer. the internet is the place where people say their opinion. everyone can say what he thinks. everyone can say that Intel sucks. and Intel will notice it and will improve. if they would not, they will be go down, too, and other microship companies will come up.
i agree, that the process of improvements maybe will slow down and sometimes will get stuck, but it will never stop completly, because if Intel will stop, other companies will come to the surface. and in a time, where Intel will have a monopoly and doesn't make success in creating new microships, every new company will be welcome. and in such a time the money Intel had raised will not matter any more. to stop a upcoming company they will have to control the internet.

[Chewtoy]

First of all, how does an high-end ATi graphics card relate to this? Second, just look at nVidia. They are screwed with their GT300 architecture, which was due ages ago.

You really can't expect ATi to deliver big batches of their cards to Europe (and I'm from Finland so not dissing Europe), when they have a much larger market in the U.S. Take a look at Apple. In the States, you can get an iPhone in any shop. Here in Finland (and generally in the smaller European countries), you have to wait weeks and possibly months to get one.

Plus, the delays of both ATi and nVidia are due to TMSC, who have problems with the 40nm manufacturing process.

And Intel was busted ages ago in Europe. They had to pay tons of money to the EU for breaking the laws. :)

If you make a product and you tell makers to make this product, they should make it. Correct?
Now comes along a little devil who pays the makers to not make your product. That is how it relates.

nVidia is nVidia. They have never been in the front of the market as far as I can recall.

I very much can expect it. I live in Sweden. One of the highest rank techonlogy counties on the world. For some years now we have been in the top 10 countries for most inovation regarding internet and hardware. We're also one of the countries that invest most in R&D (we're leading in Europe).
Here, we got iPhones in pretty much every retail store. I, in fact, got two on my street some 70meters and the other 300meters from my current location. And then I have Webhallen (the number one place to get your hardware ) some ~1.3km from me.
Serously. Sweden is BIG on computers. We also got the biggest LAN in the world. You might have heard about it as you're from finland. It's called DreamHack.

Huh... TMSC. I didn't know about their problems to be honest. They haven't been mentioned in SweClockers' aritcles (SweClockers beeing one of the biggest computer forums in Sweden). So shame on me...

Yeah. I know. They appealed some months ago. I just didn't know they we're doing it / beeing sued on the US as well.