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[Bug] PowerPlugin reporting 0 MHZ clock speed on AMD CPUs

Report bugs with the Rainmeter application and suggest features.
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SilverAzide
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Joined: March 23rd, 2015, 5:26 pm

Re: [Bug?] PowerPlugin reporting 0 MHZ clock speed on AMD CPUs

Post by SilverAzide »

jsmorley wrote: June 25th, 2020, 7:03 pm I don't know offhand what the Power plugin is using to get this information, but if it is using PerfMon to do so, you might have them try this:

https://forum.rainmeter.net/viewtopic.php?f=118&t=23156
They reported back that rebuilding the PerfMon database didn't work, the Power plugin measure still reports 0 Mhz. :(
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Brian
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Re: [Bug?] PowerPlugin reporting 0 MHZ clock speed on AMD CPUs

Post by Brian »

SilverAzide wrote: June 25th, 2020, 8:09 pm They reported back that rebuilding the PerfMon database didn't work, the Power plugin measure still reports 0 Mhz. :(
While looking at the source, the plugin appears to check some power functions before looking for the processor information. I have tweaked it a bit and added some logging information if any error occurs.

Could you have them try this version and see if it helps? (Don't forget to have them check the log for errors.)
https://builds.rainmeter.net/Rainmeter-4.4-r3387-beta.exe

We rely on the Windows API to get this value, so if the problem persists, I suspect there may be a driver issue where Windows cannot see the correct value.

-Brian
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SilverAzide
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Re: [Bug?] PowerPlugin reporting 0 MHZ clock speed on AMD CPUs

Post by SilverAzide »

Brian wrote: June 26th, 2020, 11:06 pmCould you have them try this version and see if it helps? (Don't forget to have them check the log for errors.)
Will do! :thumbup:
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M-Michael
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Re: [Bug?] PowerPlugin reporting 0 MHZ clock speed on AMD CPUs

Post by M-Michael »

I experience the same problem, using an AMD 3700X, looks like the problem is coming from the new Ryzen processors. I'm using Rainmeter 4.4.0.3397 (also tried release 3387, which Brian linked above) on Windows 10 with Microsofts default processor driver. Sadly my log does not have any errors or anything about the power plugin, but I post it anyway.
NOTE (03:47:27.421) : Rainmeter 4.4.0.3397 beta (64-bit)
NOTE (03:47:27.422) : Language: German (1031)
NOTE (03:47:27.423) : Build time: 2020-07-03 16:02:27
NOTE (03:47:27.423) : Commit Hash: 06ddf02f
NOTE (03:47:27.424) : Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit (build 18363) - German (1031)
NOTE (03:47:27.424) : Path: C:\Program Files\Rainmeter\
NOTE (03:47:27.425) : SkinPath: D:\Michael\Documents\Rainmeter\Skins\
NOTE (03:47:27.425) : SettingsPath: C:\Users\Michael\AppData\Roaming\Rainmeter\
NOTE (03:47:27.426) : IniFile: C:\Users\Michael\AppData\Roaming\Rainmeter\Rainmeter.ini
DBUG (03:47:27.428) : ------------------------------
DBUG (03:47:27.428) : * EnumDisplayDevices / EnumDisplaySettings API
DBUG (03:47:27.429) : \\.\DISPLAY1
DBUG (03:47:27.430) : Name : Fujitsu Siemens SCALEOVIEW H22-1W
DBUG (03:47:27.430) : Adapter : AMD Radeon RX 5700
DBUG (03:47:27.430) : Flags : ACTIVE PRIMARY (0x00080005)
DBUG (03:47:27.431) : Handle : 0x0000000000010001
DBUG (03:47:27.431) : ScrArea : L=0, T=0, R=1680, B=1050 (W=1680, H=1050)
DBUG (03:47:27.432) : WorkArea : L=0, T=0, R=1680, B=1020 (W=1680, H=1020)
DBUG (03:47:27.432) : \\.\DISPLAY2
DBUG (03:47:27.433) : Adapter : AMD Radeon RX 5700
DBUG (03:47:27.434) : Flags : (0x00080000)
DBUG (03:47:27.434) : \\.\DISPLAY3
DBUG (03:47:27.435) : Adapter : AMD Radeon RX 5700
DBUG (03:47:27.435) : Flags : (0x00080000)
DBUG (03:47:27.436) : \\.\DISPLAY4
DBUG (03:47:27.437) : Adapter : AMD Radeon RX 5700
DBUG (03:47:27.437) : Flags : (0x00080000)
DBUG (03:47:27.438) : \\.\DISPLAY5
DBUG (03:47:27.438) : Adapter : AMD Radeon RX 5700
DBUG (03:47:27.439) : Flags : (0x00080000)
DBUG (03:47:27.440) : \\.\DISPLAY6
DBUG (03:47:27.440) : Adapter : AMD Radeon RX 5700
DBUG (03:47:27.441) : Flags : (0x00080000)
DBUG (03:47:27.442) : \\.\DISPLAY7
DBUG (03:47:27.443) : Adapter : AMD Radeon RX 5700
DBUG (03:47:27.443) : Flags : (0x00080000)
DBUG (03:47:27.444) : \\.\DISPLAY8
DBUG (03:47:27.445) : Adapter : AMD Radeon RX 5700
DBUG (03:47:27.445) : Flags : (0x00080000)
DBUG (03:47:27.446) : ------------------------------
DBUG (03:47:27.446) : * EnumDisplayMonitors API
DBUG (03:47:27.447) : \\.\DISPLAY1
DBUG (03:47:27.447) : Flags : PRIMARY (0x00000001)
DBUG (03:47:27.448) : Handle : 0x0000000000010001
DBUG (03:47:27.448) : ScrArea : L=0, T=0, R=1680, B=1050 (W=1680, H=1050)
DBUG (03:47:27.449) : WorkArea : L=0, T=0, R=1680, B=1020 (W=1680, H=1020)
DBUG (03:47:27.449) : ------------------------------
DBUG (03:47:27.450) : * METHOD: EnumDisplayDevices + EnumDisplaySettings Mode
DBUG (03:47:27.450) : * MONITORS: Count=8, Primary=@1
DBUG (03:47:27.451) : @0: Virtual screen
DBUG (03:47:27.451) : L=0, T=0, R=1680, B=1050 (W=1680, H=1050)
DBUG (03:47:27.452) : @1: \\.\DISPLAY1 (active), MonitorName: Fujitsu Siemens SCALEOVIEW H22-1W
DBUG (03:47:27.452) : L=0, T=0, R=1680, B=1050 (W=1680, H=1050)
DBUG (03:47:27.452) : @2: \\.\DISPLAY2 (inactive), MonitorName:
DBUG (03:47:27.453) : @3: \\.\DISPLAY3 (inactive), MonitorName:
DBUG (03:47:27.453) : @4: \\.\DISPLAY4 (inactive), MonitorName:
DBUG (03:47:27.454) : @5: \\.\DISPLAY5 (inactive), MonitorName:
DBUG (03:47:27.455) : @6: \\.\DISPLAY6 (inactive), MonitorName:
DBUG (03:47:27.455) : @7: \\.\DISPLAY7 (inactive), MonitorName:
DBUG (03:47:27.455) : @8: \\.\DISPLAY8 (inactive), MonitorName:
DBUG (03:47:27.456) : ------------------------------
DBUG (03:47:27.457) : ------------------------------
DBUG (03:47:27.457) : * NETWORK-INTERFACE: Count=24
DBUG (03:47:27.458) : 1: Realtek PCIe GbE Family Controller-WFP Native MAC Layer LightWeight Filter-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.458) : Alias: Ethernet-WFP Native MAC Layer LightWeight Filter-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.459) : Type=Ethernet(6), Hardware=No, Filter=Yes
DBUG (03:47:27.459) : 2: Realtek PCIe GbE Family Controller-QoS Packet Scheduler-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.460) : Alias: Ethernet-QoS Packet Scheduler-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.460) : Type=Ethernet(6), Hardware=No, Filter=Yes
DBUG (03:47:27.461) : 3: Realtek PCIe GbE Family Controller-WFP 802.3 MAC Layer LightWeight Filter-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.461) : Alias: Ethernet-WFP 802.3 MAC Layer LightWeight Filter-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.461) : Type=Ethernet(6), Hardware=No, Filter=Yes
DBUG (03:47:27.462) : 4: WAN Miniport (IP)-WFP Native MAC Layer LightWeight Filter-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.462) : Alias: LAN-Verbindung* 6-WFP Native MAC Layer LightWeight Filter-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.463) : Type=Ethernet(6), Hardware=No, Filter=Yes
DBUG (03:47:27.463) : 5: WAN Miniport (IP)-QoS Packet Scheduler-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.463) : Alias: LAN-Verbindung* 6-QoS Packet Scheduler-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.464) : Type=Ethernet(6), Hardware=No, Filter=Yes
DBUG (03:47:27.464) : 6: WAN Miniport (IPv6)-WFP Native MAC Layer LightWeight Filter-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.464) : Alias: LAN-Verbindung* 7-WFP Native MAC Layer LightWeight Filter-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.465) : Type=Ethernet(6), Hardware=No, Filter=Yes
DBUG (03:47:27.465) : 7: WAN Miniport (IPv6)-QoS Packet Scheduler-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.466) : Alias: LAN-Verbindung* 7-QoS Packet Scheduler-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.466) : Type=Ethernet(6), Hardware=No, Filter=Yes
DBUG (03:47:27.467) : 8: WAN Miniport (Network Monitor)-WFP Native MAC Layer LightWeight Filter-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.467) : Alias: LAN-Verbindung* 8-WFP Native MAC Layer LightWeight Filter-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.467) : Type=Ethernet(6), Hardware=No, Filter=Yes
DBUG (03:47:27.468) : 9: WAN Miniport (Network Monitor)-QoS Packet Scheduler-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.468) : Alias: LAN-Verbindung* 8-QoS Packet Scheduler-0000
DBUG (03:47:27.469) : Type=Ethernet(6), Hardware=No, Filter=Yes
DBUG (03:47:27.469) : 10: Microsoft Kernel Debug Network Adapter
DBUG (03:47:27.470) : Alias: Ethernet (Kerneldebugger)
DBUG (03:47:27.470) : Type=Ethernet(6), Hardware=No, Filter=No
DBUG (03:47:27.471) : 11: Realtek PCIe GbE Family Controller
DBUG (03:47:27.471) : Alias: Ethernet
DBUG (03:47:27.472) : Type=Ethernet(6), Hardware=Yes, Filter=No
DBUG (03:47:27.472) : 12: WAN Miniport (IP)
DBUG (03:47:27.472) : Alias: LAN-Verbindung* 6
DBUG (03:47:27.473) : Type=Ethernet(6), Hardware=No, Filter=No
DBUG (03:47:27.473) : 13: WAN Miniport (IPv6)
DBUG (03:47:27.474) : Alias: LAN-Verbindung* 7
DBUG (03:47:27.474) : Type=Ethernet(6), Hardware=No, Filter=No
DBUG (03:47:27.475) : 14: WAN Miniport (Network Monitor)
DBUG (03:47:27.475) : Alias: LAN-Verbindung* 8
DBUG (03:47:27.475) : Type=Ethernet(6), Hardware=No, Filter=No
DBUG (03:47:27.476) : 15: WAN Miniport (PPPOE)
DBUG (03:47:27.476) : Alias: LAN-Verbindung* 5
DBUG (03:47:27.476) : Type=PPP(23), Hardware=No, Filter=No
DBUG (03:47:27.477) : 16: RAS Async Adapter
DBUG (03:47:27.477) : Alias: LAN-Verbindung* 9
DBUG (03:47:27.478) : Type=PPP(23), Hardware=No, Filter=No
DBUG (03:47:27.478) : 17: Software Loopback Interface 1
DBUG (03:47:27.478) : Alias: Loopback Pseudo-Interface 1
DBUG (03:47:27.479) : Type=Loopback(24), Hardware=No, Filter=No
DBUG (03:47:27.479) : 18: Microsoft Teredo Tunneling Adapter
DBUG (03:47:27.480) : Alias: Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface
DBUG (03:47:27.480) : Type=Tunnel(131), Hardware=No, Filter=No
DBUG (03:47:27.480) : 19: Microsoft IP-HTTPS Platform Adapter
DBUG (03:47:27.481) : Alias: Microsoft IP-HTTPS Platform Interface
DBUG (03:47:27.481) : Type=Tunnel(131), Hardware=No, Filter=No
DBUG (03:47:27.482) : 20: Microsoft 6to4 Adapter
DBUG (03:47:27.482) : Alias: 6to4 Adapter
DBUG (03:47:27.482) : Type=Tunnel(131), Hardware=No, Filter=No
DBUG (03:47:27.483) : 21: WAN Miniport (SSTP)
DBUG (03:47:27.483) : Alias: LAN-Verbindung* 1
DBUG (03:47:27.484) : Type=Tunnel(131), Hardware=No, Filter=No
DBUG (03:47:27.484) : 22: WAN Miniport (IKEv2)
DBUG (03:47:27.484) : Alias: LAN-Verbindung* 2
DBUG (03:47:27.485) : Type=Tunnel(131), Hardware=No, Filter=No
DBUG (03:47:27.485) : 23: WAN Miniport (L2TP)
DBUG (03:47:27.486) : Alias: LAN-Verbindung* 3
DBUG (03:47:27.486) : Type=Tunnel(131), Hardware=No, Filter=No
DBUG (03:47:27.486) : 24: WAN Miniport (PPTP)
DBUG (03:47:27.487) : Alias: LAN-Verbindung* 4
DBUG (03:47:27.488) : Type=Tunnel(131), Hardware=No, Filter=No
DBUG (03:47:27.488) : ------------------------------
DBUG (03:47:27.489) : ------------------------------
DBUG (03:47:27.489) : * Font families:
DBUG (03:47:27.491) : Arial, Arial Black, Bahnschrift, Bahnschrift Condensed, Bahnschrift Light, Bahnschrift Light Condensed, Bahnschrift Light SemiCondensed, Bahnschrift SemiBold, Bahnschrift SemiBold Condensed, Bahnschrift SemiBold SemiConden, Bahnschrift SemiCondensed, Bahnschrift SemiLight, Bahnschrift SemiLight Condensed, Bahnschrift SemiLight SemiConde, Calibri, Calibri Light, Cambria, Cambria Math, Candara, Candara Light, Comic Sans MS, Consolas, Constantia, Corbel, Corbel Light, Courier New, Ebrima, Franklin Gothic Medium, Gabriola, Gadugi, Georgia, Glasgow, Glasgow Heavy, Glasgow Light, HoloLens MDL2 Assets, Impact, Ink Free, Javanese Text, Lato, Lato Light, Lato Semibold, Leelawadee UI, Leelawadee UI Semilight, Lucida Console, Lucida Sans Unicode, Malgun Gothic, Malgun Gothic Semilight, Marlett, Microsoft Himalaya, Microsoft JhengHei, Microsoft JhengHei Light, Microsoft JhengHei UI, Microsoft JhengHei UI Light, Microsoft New Tai Lue, Microsoft PhagsPa, Microsoft Sans Serif, Microsoft Tai Le, Microsoft YaHei, Microsoft YaHei Light, Microsoft YaHei UI, Microsoft YaHei UI Light, Microsoft Yi Baiti, MicroSquare, MingLiU-ExtB, MingLiU_HKSCS-ExtB, Mongolian Baiti, MS Gothic, MS PGothic, MS UI Gothic, MV Boli, Myanmar Text, Nirmala UI, Nirmala UI Semilight, NSimSun, Palatino Linotype, PMingLiU-ExtB, Seagull, Segoe MDL2 Assets, Segoe Print, Segoe Script, Segoe UI, Segoe UI Black, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Historic, Segoe UI Light, Segoe UI Semibold, Segoe UI Semilight, Segoe UI Symbol, SimSun, SimSun-ExtB, Sitka Banner, Sitka Display, Sitka Heading, Sitka Small, Sitka Subheading, Sitka Text, Sylfaen, Symbol, Tahoma, Times New Roman, Toledo, Toledo Heavy, Toledo Light, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Victor Mono, Victor Mono ExtraLight, Victor Mono Light, Victor Mono Medium, Victor Mono Oblique, Victor Mono SemiBold, Victor Mono Thin, Webdings, Wingdings, Yu Gothic, Yu Gothic Light, Yu Gothic Medium, Yu Gothic UI, Yu Gothic UI Light, Yu Gothic UI Semibold, Yu Gothic UI Semilight
DBUG (03:47:27.491) : ------------------------------
DBUG (03:47:27.493) : Reading file: C:\Users\Michael\AppData\Roaming\Rainmeter\Rainmeter.ini
NOTE (03:47:27.504) : ConfigEditor: C:\Program Files\Notepad++\notepad++.exe
DBUG (03:47:27.505) : Reading file: C:\Users\Michael\AppData\Roaming\Rainmeter\Rainmeter.stats
NOTE (03:47:27.509) SimpleBar\right\right.ini: Refreshing skin
DBUG (03:47:27.509) SimpleBar\right\right.ini: Reading file: D:\Michael\Documents\Rainmeter\Skins\SimpleBar\right\right.ini
DBUG (03:47:27.514) : Reading file: C:\Users\Michael\AppData\Roaming\Rainmeter\Rainmeter.ini
DBUG (03:47:27.518) SimpleBar\right\right.ini - [MeasurePing]: PingPlugin.dll: Evaluating: 192.71.247.223 (Index: 0)
DBUG (03:47:27.518) SimpleBar\right\right.ini - [MeasurePing]: PingPlugin.dll: Found IPv4 address for: 192.71.247.223
DBUG (03:47:46.629) : System: "Show desktop" has been detected.
DBUG (03:47:46.738) : System: "Show open windows" has been detected.
NOTE (03:48:00.007) SimpleBar\right\right.ini: Refreshing skin
DBUG (03:48:00.009) SimpleBar\right\right.ini: Reading file: D:\Michael\Documents\Rainmeter\Skins\SimpleBar\right\right.ini
DBUG (03:48:00.015) : Reading file: C:\Users\Michael\AppData\Roaming\Rainmeter\Rainmeter.ini
DBUG (03:48:00.018) SimpleBar\right\right.ini - [MeasurePing]: PingPlugin.dll: Evaluating: 192.71.247.223 (Index: 0)
DBUG (03:48:00.018) SimpleBar\right\right.ini - [MeasurePing]: PingPlugin.dll: Found IPv4 address for: 192.71.247.223
DBUG (03:48:03.525) : System: "Show desktop" has been detected.
DBUG (03:48:03.629) : System: "Show open windows" has been detected.
DBUG (03:48:05.131) : System: "Show desktop" has been detected.
DBUG (03:48:05.238) : System: "Show open windows" has been detected.
And this is how I use the plugin in my skin:

Code: Select all

[MeasureCPUspeed]
Measure=Plugin
Plugin=PowerPlugin
PowerState=MHz

[MeterValueCPUspeed]
Meter=String
MeterStyle=StyleRightText
MeasureName=MeasureCPUspeed
Text=%1 MHz
Kind regards,
Michael
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Yincognito
Posts: 2233
Joined: February 27th, 2015, 2:38 pm
Location: Terra Yincognita

Re: [Bug?] PowerPlugin reporting 0 MHZ clock speed on AMD CPUs

Post by Yincognito »

I use MSI Afterburner as my GPU / Temperature "source" instead of HWiNFO and others, and some "issues" regarding how (and if) the CPU usage was reported on Ryzen processors were experienced by users there as well (not sure about power related information retrieval though, but I guess there could be a connection between those areas). Workarounds have probably been discovered or the said issues were fixed by now, but yeah, those Ryzen processors did (or still do?) need some "special handling" in these hardware information retrieval scenarios...
User avatar
SilverAzide
Posts: 928
Joined: March 23rd, 2015, 5:26 pm

Re: [Bug] PowerPlugin reporting 0 MHZ clock speed on AMD CPUs

Post by SilverAzide »

In case anyone wanders onto this thread after experiencing this issue, here is a work-around you can use to replace the PowerPlugin measure with a set of measures that work even better, and with no need for a third-party utility like HWiNFO.

Assuming you have a measure to monitor the clock speed of your CPU, like this for example:

Code: Select all

[MeasureCPUSpeed]
Measure=Plugin
Plugin=PowerPlugin
PowerState=MHz
Replace the above with this:

Code: Select all

[MeasureCPUFrequency]
Measure=Plugin
Plugin=UsageMonitor
Category="Processor Information"
Counter="Processor Frequency"
Name="0,_Total"

[MeasureCPUPercentPerformance]
Measure=Plugin
Plugin=UsageMonitor
Category="Processor Information"
Counter="% Processor Performance"
Name="0,_Total"

[MeasureCPUSpeed]
Measure=Calc
Formula=MeasureCPUFrequency * MeasureCPUPercentPerformance / 100
Note that these measures assume you have one physical CPU, thus they report the info for CPU #0 only. For those rare folks with multi-CPU systems, you'll need to take additional action.
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jsmorley
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Location: Fort Hunt, Virginia, USA

Re: [Bug] PowerPlugin reporting 0 MHZ clock speed on AMD CPUs

Post by jsmorley »

SilverAzide,

Clever.. That seems to work really well.
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Yincognito
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Joined: February 27th, 2015, 2:38 pm
Location: Terra Yincognita

Re: [Bug] PowerPlugin reporting 0 MHZ clock speed on AMD CPUs

Post by Yincognito »

SilverAzide wrote: August 1st, 2020, 1:07 am In case anyone wanders onto this thread after experiencing this issue, here is a work-around you can use to replace the PowerPlugin measure with a set of measures that work even better, and with no need for a third-party utility like HWiNFO.

Assuming you have a measure to monitor the clock speed of your CPU, like this for example:

Code: Select all

[MeasureCPUSpeed]
Measure=Plugin
Plugin=PowerPlugin
PowerState=MHz
Replace the above with this:

Code: Select all

[MeasureCPUFrequency]
Measure=Plugin
Plugin=UsageMonitor
Category="Processor Information"
Counter="Processor Frequency"
Name="0,_Total"

[MeasureCPUPercentPerformance]
Measure=Plugin
Plugin=UsageMonitor
Category="Processor Information"
Counter="% Processor Performance"
Name="0,_Total"

[MeasureCPUSpeed]
Measure=Calc
Formula=MeasureCPUFrequency * MeasureCPUPercentPerformance / 100
Note that these measures assume you have one physical CPU, thus they report the info for CPU #0 only. For those rare folks with multi-CPU systems, you'll need to take additional action.
Hopefully I'm mistaken or I'm missing something here, but I did a test and it came out a bit off, from what I can tell. I set my CPU to max 50% from the Control Panel's (Advanced) Power Options, effectively limiting my CPU to 1100 MHz, but your otherwise ingenious method is reporting half of that, as per the formula. It seems in this case, the (slightly less) than 50% reported by PerfMon in "% Processor Performance" is actually (1100 MHz / 2300 MHz) * 100, aka (CurrentFrequency / MaxFrequency) * 100, so multiplying again with that 50% value is producing half of what it should output:
PowerVsPerfM.jpg
(Power is the value from the Power Plugin, PerfM is the value from your MeasureCPUSpeed measure)

That being said, I fully agree with jsmorley here, this is quite ingenious otherwise. :thumbup:
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buckb
Posts: 38
Joined: February 12th, 2018, 12:47 am

Re: [Bug] PowerPlugin reporting 0 MHZ clock speed on AMD CPUs

Post by buckb »

I looked at processor frequency and scaling a few years back:

https://forum.rainmeter.net/viewtopic.php?f=119&t=29020&p=151406&hilit=buckb#p151406

For my CPU skin, I settled on:

1) CPU utilization: "Processor Information\% Processor Utility"

2) CPU frequency: Nominal processor frequency from the registry's "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\HARDWARE\DESCRIPTION\System\CentralProcessor\0\~MHz" multiplied by Perfmon's "Processor Information\% Processor Performance"

I found these values to best match what Task Manger and Resource Monitor were reporting. I found PowerPlugin's reported frequency to be unreliable across my machines (all Intel).

--buckb
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SilverAzide
Posts: 928
Joined: March 23rd, 2015, 5:26 pm

Re: [Bug] PowerPlugin reporting 0 MHZ clock speed on AMD CPUs

Post by SilverAzide »

buckb wrote: August 1st, 2020, 7:28 pm
Thanks buckb! I'll give that a try...
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